Intervista a Maurice Caillet

di Pietro Piccinini

Maurice Caillet è stato massone. Anzi, massonissimo. Per la precisione, è stato Maestro Venerabile di una delle più antiche e importanti logge del Grande Oriente di Francia. Di più: iniziato alla libera muratoria nel 1970 nel Tempio di Rennes, nei suoi quindici anni di fedele appartenenza il dottor Caillet, medico specializzato in chirurgia ginecologica e urologia, ateo razionalista quasi fin dentro il dna, è stato una specie di enfant prodige della massoneria, guadagnandosi il privilegio di accedere agli Alti Gradi del Rito Scozzese Antico Accettato (dei quali molti “fratelli” ignorano perfino l’esistenza), fino a raggiungere il diciottesimo, quello di Cavaliere Rosacroce. Da membro storico dell’Organizzazione per la Pianificazione Familiare, praticava la contraccezione artificiale e la sterilizzazione prima ancora che fossero legalizzate, e dal 1975, dopo aver visto andare in porto il piano massonico per l’introduzione in Francia di una legge sull’aborto, divenne il primo medico a esercitare le interruzioni di gravidanza in Bretagna. Nel frattempo, nel 1973, era anche diventato rappresentante locale del Partito socialista di François Mitterrand, perciò quando, nel 1981, quest’ultimo fu eletto presidente della Repubblica e nominò dodici ministri massoni, Caillet ebbe modo di valutare da vicino il conseguente boom di domande di iniziazione, molte delle quali provenivano naturalmente da politici in cerca di utili amicizie. Lo stesso Caillet, che pure era entrato nella massoneria immaginandola come «un luogo dove scambiarsi le idee all’insegna della laicità», in seguito non disdegnò di scambiarsi appoggi di carriera e favori giudiziari coi fratelli.

Tutto questo, completo di nomi e cognomi, Maurice Caillet lo ha scritto in un libro, Ero massone (Piemme), che da un paio di mesi è uscito anche in Italia. Peccato che pochi se ne siano accorti. Peccato perché tra quelle pagine ci sono cose che forse neanche Dan Brown avrebbe il cuore di attribuire alla più fanatica delle sue sette inventate. A parte l’armamentario classico di compassi e grembiuli, ci sono – raccontati nel dettaglio – formule e riti occulti con tende nere, teschi e bare. C’è (prima dell’iniziazione) l’ispezione dei Maestri in incognito a casa Caillet. Ci sono resoconti di riunioni segrete, mitologia, ideologia, corruzione e trame di potere. Ma soprattutto ci sono l’isolamento, il mobbing spietato e le minacce di morte di cui Caillet fu fatto oggetto a partire dal momento in cui, nel 1984, decise di comunicare ai “fratelli” la sua conversione al cattolicesimo. Sembra il romanzo di un incredibile complottone della massoneria intergalattica. Invece è la storia vera di Maurice Caillet. Che oggi vive in Spagna, sotto protezione.

Dottor Caillet, lei chiese di entrare nella massoneria da convinto ateo razionalista. E in genere è così che ci si immagina i massoni. Quella che lei racconta, però, è più che altro una strana forma di religione misterica ultrafideista. Che logica ha questo tuffo dai Lumi all’occulto?
C’è qualche cosa di incomprensibile anche per me nell’essere passato dal razionalismo e dallo scientismo all’accettazione di rituali di tipo animista fondati su una mitologia discutibile e a una vera e propria negazione della ragione. Il mio stesso raziocinio ne è rimasto chiaramente annebbiato. Anche altre persone più qualificate di me hanno ceduto alla seduzione delle “sirene” massoniche: curiosità, ricerca di saperi nascosti ai comuni mortali, ambizione di entrare nell’élite. Questa irrazionalità contrasta effettivamente con le filosofie cosiddette dei Lumi, che facevano l’apologia della ragione, spesso con disprezzo per la fede.

If it wasn’t for Medjugorje, I wouldn’t have ever played in movie “Passion”

Jim Caviezel became the world famous actor with leading role in Mel Gibson’s movie “Passion”. Who is that actor that has so impressively become one with character of Jesus? Personally, he claims that if it wasn’t for Medjugorje, he wouldn’t have ever even accepted that role. Namely, in Medjugorje he had experienced certain dimension of faith that was unknown to him up to that point. In February he came to Medjugorje for the sixth time as pilgrim, and he visited Vienna after that trip. While he was in Vienna he had interview with Christian Stelzer for magazine “Oase des Friedens”, and interview translated in Croatian can be found in new edition of “Glasnik mira” from Medjugorje.

Jim, can you tell us how did you hear about Medjugorje?

My wife came to Medjugorje while I was in Ireland, shooting movie “Monte Cristo”. Things were not that great although I worked seven days a week. One day she called me, and I could notice in her voice that there was a change. She started talking about Medjugorje, and how one of visionaries is about to come to Ireland…I interrupted her by saying: “Listen, I really have some serious stuff to do, I am not able now to go into anything with any of the visionaries.” Besides that, I thought that as Catholic I do not have to necessarily accept Lourdes or Fatima or Medjugorje. That is how I thought. I remember that in the catholic school that I attended earlier in my life, once we heard about Medjugorje we were thrilled, but we found out soon that local bishop is objecting and considers apparitions to be false, and therefore we lost our interest immediately.

In any case, visionary Ivan Dragicevic came to Ireland. I knew straight at the beginning that I will not have time for him, since I had to work all the time. One day, my movie partner Jim Harris was not feeling well, I got the day off and I was able to attend one apparition. I stood at the very back of the packed church, and I wasn’t quite sure about what was going on. When the man who was next to me in his wheelchair fell down on his knees at the time of apparition, I was deeply moved. I thought, this handicapped man, despite all of his pains is kneeling down on cold stone floor and he is praying! Today I realize it was only God who knew me that well that He knew where exactly He needs to touch me to get my attention!

Although it might sound strange, on Sunday that followed, I got another day off and I was able to meet with Ivan, which was my wife’s special wish. During the time of apparition I knelt close to him and I said in my heart: “Ok, here I am. I am ready. Do with me what you want.” In the same moment I felt as something was fulfilling me. It was very simple, and yet unique. When I got up, tears were running down my cheeks and I started to cry with all of my heart. Ivan told me: “Jim, man always finds time for what he loves. If somebody who doesn’t have any time finds girlfriends and falls in love with her, he will always find time for her. People don’t have time for God because they do not love Him.” And he continued: “God is inviting you to pray with the heart.” I asked him: “How am I supposed to do that?” “By starting to pray”, he replied. In that moment doors of my heart were opened. I couldn’t even dream about that being possible. We went to restaurant, and I must admit that wine and food I had that night were never as tasteful as in that particular night. Something started to change within me. My wife wanted to teach me on many occasions in the past how to pray the Rosary, but I always refused to learn that. Now, I wanted to pray, but I did not know exactly how to do that. I just felt that my heart was opened. One morning as I was driving to work, I said to the driver that was taking me for shooting every day: “I don’t know how you feel about this, but I would want to start to pray the Rosary.” At my amazement, he just replied: “Ok, let’s pray.”

In the warm light of love that I felt within me, I was able to realize where I really was, how many temptations I had, where were my feelings, how weak I was and how strictly I judged other people.

When did you come to Medjugorje for the first time?

After shooting was completed, and that was in Malta, I decided to come to Medjugorje. When I was twenty, inner voice was saying to me that I should become an actor. When I spoke about that with my father, he used to say: “If God wants something of you that is for you to become a priest, why would He want you to become an actor?” I did not understand either at that time.
Again, I asked myself the same question, does God want me to become an actor, to make lots of money and to become rich? I was aware of imbalance in the world between those who have a lot, and many of those who barely have for survival, and I knew that is not what God wanted, and I was to make a choice whether I will serve to richness that does not provide permanent happiness or to God who wants to guide my life?

At that time, Medjugorje reminded me of Bethlehem and I thought, as Jesus was born in a small place, in the same way Mother of God is appearing in one poor village in between hills. Those four days I spent in Medjugorje at that time were my turning point. In the very beginning I was still amazed at how much people in Medjugorje prayed. Everything reminded me of basketball camp, and I thought there you do not play one match a day, but always, constantly, anew. The same is in the school where you do not read just once a day, but always, repeatedly. In those first days in Medjugorje I felt inner unrest while I was praying, because I was not used to pray that much and I was asking God to help me. After four days the only thing I wanted to do was to pray. Whenever I prayed, I felt connected with God. That is my experience I would wish for every Catholic to experience! Maybe as a child, I felt something similar and I forgot about it. Now, it was given to me again.

The same experience continued back at home. In our family we live sacraments together. As we drive kids to school, we all together pray the Rosary, sometimes when I don’t start to pray, my son starts first.

When I came to Medjugorje for second time, I expected to have those first, initial experiences again, but it was different. After having lunch on one of those days, pilgrims invited me to go with them to visit Fr. Jozo Zovko in Siroki Brijeg. That was, above all, my wife’s desire. I didn’t know Fr. Jozo personally, but I was very much impressed by all stories I heard about him. I met with him. He laid his hands on my shoulders. I laid mine on his shoulders. He laid his hands on my head. I laid mine on his head. In that moment I felt the words within me: “I love you, my brother. This man loves God.” Fr. Jozo spontaneously turned towards his interpreter and asked her in Croatian who I was, and that he wanted to talk to me. That was beginning of a friendship that lasts up to now.

That was the time immediately after we finished shooting “Passion”, and in that time I was able to experience all conflicting forces within me regarding that movie.

Can you tell us why did you feel that way, and what was the connection between that movie and Medjugorje?

You are probably familiar with expression “to cross the Rubicon”. That means it is not possible to go back, you reach the point of no return. Movie “Passion” was such Rubicon for me. When shooting started, I was 33 years old, just like Jesus. I always wondered if I was even worthy to play Jesus. Ivan Dragicevic encouraged me and said that God does not always, necessarily choose the best, which is something he sees in his own example. If it wasn’t for Medjugorje I wouldn’t have ever agreed to take that part, because it was in Medjugorje that my heart opened to prayer and to sacraments. If I wanted to play Jesus, I knew I needed to be very close to him. Every day I went to confession and I attended Eucharistic Adoration. Mel Gibson was coming to Holy Mass as well with the condition that Holy Mass is in Latin. That was good, in that way I learned Latin.

There were always new temptations that I needed to defend myself from, and in those inner battles, I used to feel, not just once, great inner peace. For instance, where Mother of God approaches me, and I tell her: “Look, I make everything anew.” We repeated that scene four times, and I felt every time that I was standing too much in the forefront. Then, somebody hit the cross and my left shoulder was dislocated. Due to that sudden and sharp, intense pain, I lost balance and I felt under the weight of the cross. I hit dusty ground with my face and the blood gushed forth suddenly from both of my nose and my mouth. I repeated the words Jesus said to His mother: “Look, I make everything anew.” My shoulder was in incredible pain when I took the cross again and felt how precious it was. At that point, I stopped acting and you could only see Jesus. He came forward as to the answer to my prayers: “I want people to see you, Jesus, not me!”

Thanks to continuous prayer of the Rosary, I can not even tell how many Rosaries I said during the time of shooting, I was able to feel special atmosphere. I knew I wasn’t supposed to use bad language, I knew I couldn’t be rude if I wanted to say something to members of the crew. Most of them did not know about Medjugorje, they were all great actors, and we were lucky to get them. But how was I to bring Medjugorje to them, if not by my own life? Medjugorje for me means to live out of sacraments and in the unity with the Church. Thanks to Medjugorje I started to believe that Jesus was really present in the Eucharist, and that he forgives me my sins. Through Medjugorje I experienced how Rosary is powerful prayer and what gift we have when we attend Holy Mass every day.

How could I help to other people to increase their faith in Jesus? I realized that can only happen if Jesus was present in me through the Eucharist, so people would see Jesus through my life. When we were shooting scene of Last Supper, I had one inner pocket made on my clothes where I placed relics of saints and one piece of relic of Christ’s Cross. I had strong desire that Jesus is really present and I asked the priest to expose the Blessed Sacrament. At first, he did not want to do that, but I was persistent in my request because I was positive that people would recognize Christ more if I myself was looking at Him. The priest was standing with the Blessed Sacrament in his hands next to cameraman and together with him, he was approaching me. When people who are watching the movie see shimmer in my eyes, they do not realize that they really see Jesus, reflection of the consecrated Host in my eyes. The same was in the scene of Crucifixion: the priest was there, he held the Blessed Sacrament in his hands and I prayed all the time…

The biggest challenge in the movie was not, as I originally thought, to memorize all texts in Latin, Armenian or Hebrew, but all those physical efforts I needed to overcome. During the last scene, my shoulder was sprained and it would become dislocated every time somebody hit the cross. While we made scenes of flagellation, I was caught by those whips twice and I had 14 cm long wound on my back. My lungs were full of fluid and I had pneumonia. Chronic sleep deprivation should be added to that, since for months I had to get up at 3 a.m. because only putting make up lasted for about 8 hours…

Another special challenge was cold whether, temperatures very hardly above zero, which was especially difficult to endure in the scene of Crucifixion. My whole costume was made of one single piece of light fabric. While we were shooting the last scene, the clouds were very low and one lightning stroke the cross on which I was tied. Suddenly dead silence was around me and I felt my hair going up. Around 250 people who were around me saw my whole body being illuminated and they all saw fire on the left and on the right side of me. Many were shocked with what they saw.

I know that “Passion” is movie of love, maybe one of the greatest of such movies. Jesus today is subject of many controversies, more than ever before. There are so many factors that threaten to this created world, but faith in Jesus is the source of joy. I think God is inviting us especially in this time, and we need to answer that call with our full heart and whole body.

Our Interview with Fr. Donald Calloway -from Aquinas and More Catholic Goods

We recently had the opportunity to interview Fr. Donald Calloway M.I.C., well-known Marian priest, popular speaker and presenter, and author of the new book No Turning Back: A Witness to Mercy.

Our interview:

Father, our readers and customers know your name from your many books and talks, but can you give us some more information about your background?

I’m a convert to the Catholic faith. I was born in 1972 to non-Christian parents; my parents were not members of any religion. When my mother remarried I was adopted and baptized into the Episcopalian Church in southern Virginia. I was ten years old at the time. Unfortunately, we never went to church after that because the family really didn’t believe in God. Since my step-father was a military officer we began to move all around the country, and ended up in southern California. There I began to drink, do drugs and other immoral things at the early age of twelve. After that we moved to Japan. I didn’t want to move to Japan and eventually ran away at the age of fifteen. I caused an international incident and got deported from the country and had to enter into an institution back in the USA. During this time my mom and dad had a huge conversion to Catholicism, but I thought they were weird and wanted nothing to do with it. I started using very heavy drugs, dropped out of school, and was living on my own when I was 17 years old. I eventually had to go to another rehabilitation facility in Philadelphia and, unfortunately, that one did not work either. I ended up following the Grateful Dead around and got thrown in jail in Louisiana at age eighteen. Needless to say, I was not doing well in life. Yet, the God I didn’t know had a plan. At age twenty I hit ultimate rock bottom and one night in March 1992 I read a book about Marian apparitions that my parents had on their bookshelf and it radically changed my life. I ended up talking to a Catholic priest the next day and began my conversion to Catholicism. Things have never been the same since. All of this is recounted in great detail in my new book “No Turning Back: A Witness to Mercy.” After my conversion, believe it or not, I responded to the call to become a priest. I had to study for ten years, but it was worth it. Now I have been a priest for almost seven years, and travel the world telling people about Jesus, Mary, and the Catholic Church. You can check it all out on my website: www.fathercalloway.com

Our readers/customers are always interested in the process of writing a book. Can you tell us both about the process you went through to write “No Turning Back” and perhaps your other books?

I have four books available. They all take so much work. I kinda live in airports so airports have become my office. No Turning Back: A Witness to Mercy was about 6 years in the making. I wanted to do it right after my ordination, but got caught up in ministry and had to pace myself with putting it all together. At one point, I even put it on hold for about two years. My other books are: “Purest of All Lilies: The Virgin Mary in the Spirituality of St. Faustina”;“The Virgin Mary and Theology of the Body”; and “The Immaculate Conception in the Life of the Church.” All of these three books focus on some aspect of the Virgin Mary in the life of the Church. I love the Virgin Mary so much because she brought me to Jesus, and I want as many people as possible to know and love her. I have tons of more ideas for books about her, too.

Is your new book a biography or more of a spiritual memoir and why have you chosen to write your new book in this format?

It’s more of a spiritual memoir or autobiography. It’s not your ordinary Catholic book, let me tell you. I think this book is gonna rock souls for Jesus and Mary! It has a special appeal for young people because it is not a theology book or technical at all. It is written in a common, down-to-earth language that will really draw young people into the story. I would love for every young Catholic in the USA to get a copy. Also, there is a great message of hope in the book for parents who are struggling with rebellious teens or young adults. I was pretty much the worst of the worst, so if I can change, there is most certainly hope for others.

The message of Divine Mercy continues to have a profound impact on many people. In your opinion, what is the meaning behind this for our time?

Basically I believe that since our times are so messed up and confusing, God saved this message of Divine Mercy for us, here and now. God has always been merciful, but due to the craziness of the times in which we live, He saved this great message of his compassion and love for our times. Who can honestly say that they have not been affected by the culture of death in which we live? Even a chair that sits there collects dust! We are all wounded and in need of God’s redeeming love and mercy. The Divine Mercy message and devotion is the message for our times. Both Pope John Paul II and now Benedict XVI have told us this. Without God’s mercy we are lost and have no hope. So many people today think that they are beyond the reach of mercy due to their many and horrible sins. But this is simply not true. All a soul has to do is reach out for God’s unfathomable mercy and God will pour an ocean of mercy upon that soul and give such a peace to the person. All we have to do is trust in Jesus! He is mercy incarnate for us!

Can you tell us what role the Divine Mercy message has played in both your vocation to the priesthood and in your ministry as a Marian priest today?

I consider myself the ‘poster child’ for Divine Mercy! I’m so unworthy of God’s love, but because He is the Father of mercies I know that he loves me and is drawing me to himself. In a certain sense, I feel I have been bathed in mercy. And because of this I have been drawn to become an apostle of this mercy. What you have been given, freely give. So, as a Catholic priest, my role is to bring people into a relationship with the Father of mercies. No matter what I do as a priest: hear confessions, preach, conduct conferences, etc, I always seek to let people know that though their sins be like scarlet God is madly in love with them and wants their hearts. That’s what being a priest is all about. I want to bring souls to Jesus and Mary!

During Lent, this holy time of continuing conversion and repentance, our thoughts and prayers touch on themes of Divine Mercy. Please share with us some of your thoughts for Lent.

Lent is a time of going deeper with the Lord, seeking reconciliation with God and with others. Thus, the theme of Divine Mercy is a big one during Lent. For example, if you have been estranged from a particular relative for a period of time, why not reach out to them and extend a merciful invitation to start the relationship again. Oh, sure, maybe you were wronged in the past or an injustice was committed against you. Welcome to the fallen world! After all, we have turned from God so many times, and yet every single time we seek reconciliation with him, he takes us back with open arms. Thus, Lent can become a great time of ‘restored relationships.’ Mercy reaches out to the other, even when the other is not looking for it. Remember the prodigal son? Well, his father was longing for him to come back, waiting every single day for him to return. That is how God wants us to be towards our neighbor because that is how God is with us. Mercy, mercy, mercy. That is the message of Lent.

You are currently both the Vocation Director and the Director of the House of Studies for the Marians of the Immaculate Conception. Can you tell us how the Marians are spreading the message of Divine Mercy today? What effect has the Divine Mercy message had on Marian vocations?

My community, The Marians of the Immaculate Conception, are the official promoters of the Divine Mercy message and devotion. Our headquarters in the USA are in Stockbridge, Massachusetts where we operate The National Shrine of The Divine Mercy and the Marian Helpers Center. We spread the message of Divine Mercy more than any other group in the Church. Our website where we let people know about all our Divine Mercy materials and ministries is:www.thedivinemercy.org In addition, the Divine Mercy has proven to be such a blessing for us, too! We are attracting so many men to join us that it is amazing! We currently have 27 seminarians and are accepting another 8 this summer! We are busting at the seams with vocations. As the Vocation Director for my community I am so in awe of what Jesus and Mary are doing. We need a generation of priests who are apostles of mercy, and they are just on the horizon! You can check out our community at: www.marian.org.

You have experienced the unfathomable Mercy of God in your own life. We live in challenging times and many people are suffering in many ways. What message do you have for those in need of God’s mercy in their own lives, who might be reading this right now?

I would say to them: no matter what you have done or could do, God will forgive you. Trust me, I know. My new book recounts most of the filthy, disgusting, horrible things I did in my past, things that I will be forever ashamed of. Yet, I can tell you for certain that God is in love with you, and pants for your love. Turn to him with humility, go to confession, and experience the freedom of living in the mercy of our heavenly Father. There simply is nothing like it on earth. I just can’t tell you the joy and freedom I experience after having gone to confession; it is the best feeling in the world! And all I can say after it is: Thank you, Father. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

What are some concrete ways Catholics can live and spread the message of Divine Mercy in their own everyday lives?

One of the best ways I can think of for living a Divine Mercy spirituality is by starting, or becoming involved in, a Divine Mercy Cenacle. Dr. Bryan Thatcher founded the Eucharistic Apostles of Divine Mercy (EADM) and works closely with my community in helping people to live a spirituality of mercy by having cenacles of prayer where people reflect upon the message of mercy and seek to do concrete works of mercy in their particular area. It is a beautiful way to become a vessel of mercy for our times. You can find out about this particular apostolate of my Marian community at: www.thedivinemercy.org

Father Calloway, again, thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to participate in this interview with us and thank you for your ministry and your service to the Church!

You may browse all of Fr. Calloway’s book right here.

You may purchase Fr. Calloway’s DVD right here.

Learn more about the Divine Mercy Message and Devotion right here.

http://www.aquinasandmore.com/catholic-gifts/No-Turning-Back/sku/23769

Schönborn: 'Ich möchte unbedingt wieder nach Medjugorje!'

Wiener Kardinal gegenüber "Tagespost": Um zu bezweifeln, dass in Medjugorje Gnadenströme fließen, muss man die Augen verschließen. Für mich ist das eine Evidenz, an der die Kirche sicher nicht vorbeigehen kann. - Von Stephan Baier / Die Tagespost

Medjugorje (kath.net/DieTagespost) DT: Eminenz, warum haben Sie den Jahreswechsel in Medjugorje verbracht? Schönborn: Es ist eher ungewöhnlich, dass ein Kardinal als Pilger nach Medjugorje geht. Mir war das nicht so bewusst, aber ich habe es im Nachhinein festgestellt. Ich habe gehört, dass mehrere Kardinäle und Bischöfe dort waren, aber meist in einer sehr privaten Form. Auch meine Wallfahrt war ganz persönlich: eine Bitt- und Dankwallfahrt an einen Ort, von dem ich in 28 Jahren sehr viele beeindruckende Früchte gesehen habe. Deshalb war es mir wichtig, persönlich zu diesem Ort, der mittlerweile einer der größten Wallfahrtsorte der Welt ist, zu reisen. Der erste große Gebetskreis in Wien hat sich Anfang der 80er Jahre bei den Dominikanern versammelt. Uns Dominikanern fiel auf, dass die Kirche immer voll war, dass diese Gebetsabende auch den ganzen Sommer über stattfanden, dass sehr viele junge Menschen kamen und mit einer beeindruckenden Ausdauer beteten. Als ich Bischof wurde, habe ich festgestellt, wie viele unserer jüngeren Priester stark beeinflusst sind von Medjugorje, wie sehr dieses Phänomen auf ihrem persönlichen Weg zum Priestertum eine Rolle gespielt hat. Ein drittes Phänomen sind die Bekehrungen. Es gibt neben dem Taizé-Treffen kein Jugendtreffen, das so viele junge Menschen versammelt wie das Jugendfestival in Medjugorje. Dazu kommt die weltweite Bedeutung des Phänomens. Auffallend ist in Medjugorje auch die Kultur des Beichtens. Schönborn: Ich habe selbst zweieinhalb Stunden Beichte gehört. Viele, die 20 oder 30 Jahre nicht bei der Beichte waren, haben sie dort wiederentdeckt. Diese Wiederentdeckung des Bußsakraments geht durch alle Schichten. Wenn man das alles zusammennimmt, stellt sich die Frage: Wie sieht der Baum aus, der solche Früchte trägt? Es gibt eine theologische Grammatik der Marienerscheinungen. Die Mutter Gottes hat offensichtlich ein „Pastoralkonzept“. Marienerscheinungen sind ein universales Phänomen. Es gibt fast kein Land, in dem es nicht Manifestationen gibt, die für dieses Land und darüber hinaus prägend sind. Ohne einem definitiven kirchlichen Urteil vorzugreifen, stelle ich fest, dass die seit 1981 in Medjugorje bezeugten Phänomene eine starke Ähnlichkeit mit anderen Marienerscheinungen haben. Die Frage, warum die Phänomene so lange andauern, ist ein anderes Problem. In dieser äußerst armen, kargen Gegend, die aber von einer tiefen, authentisch katholischen Religiosität geprägt ist, sind Kinder mit diesen Erscheinungen in Berührung gekommen und haben sie bezeugt. Da ist ein Grundzug, der sich durch viele Marienerscheinungen zieht: Auch in Lourdes war es ein 14-jähriges Mädchen, an einem unmöglichen Ort. Maria erscheint fast nirgendwo Bischöfen, aber fast immer richten sich ihre Botschaften auch an die Priester und Bischöfe. DT: Was meinen Sie mit „Grammatik“ der Marienerscheinungen? Schönborn: Marienerscheinungen haben eine eigene Sprache: Sie richten sich an die Kleinen, weltlich gesehen Unbedeutenden. Es sind immer einfache, nie komplizierte Botschaften, aber sie treffen den Kern des Evangeliums und der christlichen Botschaft. Darin hat man ein Unterscheidungskriterium: Alle außergewöhnlichen Botschaften sind von vornherein verdächtig. Dass bereits am zweiten Tag der Erscheinungen das Wort „Friede“ zentral wurde und Maria in Medjugorje als „Königin des Friedens“ verehrt wird, ist eindrucksvoll. Zehn Jahre später bricht der erste Balkankrieg aus. Die Grundbotschaft ist das Gebet, und warum sollte die Mutter Gottes uns nicht immer wieder an diese Botschaft erinnern? Zur Grammatik der Mutter Gottes gehört für mich auch das Anreden als „Meine Kinder“, ohne Unterscheidung von hoch oder niedrig, alt oder jung. DT: Ein definitives Urteil der Kirche steht noch aus. Werbung Schönborn: Die offizielle Position der Jugoslawischen Bischofskonferenz von 1991, die von der Glaubenskongregation mindestens zweimal bestätigt worden ist, ist für mich eine ideale Leitlinie, und es ist gut, sich daran zu halten. Über die Phänomene äußert sich das Lehramt der Kirche nicht in definitiver Weise: „Es steht nicht fest, dass die Phänomene übernatürlich sind.“ Diese gewählte Formulierung lässt offen: es kann übernatürlich sein oder auch nicht. Die Kirche geht hier bewusst vorsichtig vor, um Früchte nicht zu hindern, um aber auch Irrwege, die immer möglich sind, abzuwehren. DT: Muss die Kirche zu einem definitiven Urteil kommen, sobald die Phänomene abgeschlossen sind? Schönborn: Es gibt viele Marienerscheinungsorte, wo es sehr lange kein kirchliches Urteil gab, aber trotzdem Wallfahrten stattfanden. Deshalb sind der zweite und dritte Satz der Erklärung von 1991 so wichtig, nämlich dass offizielle Wallfahrten nach Medjugorje nicht möglich sind. Zugleich wurde aber betont, dass den vielen Pilgern geistliche Betreuung zuteil werden soll. Dazu gehört der Beichtdienst, denn Medjugorje ist mittlerweile einer der größten Beichtorte der Welt. Hier sehe ich als Diözesanbischof auch meine konkrete Verantwortung gegenüber den Menschen, die in Medjugorje geistliche Impulse suchen und bekommen. Medjugorje hat eine Eigendynamik entwickelt, die ihren Anfangsimpuls zweifellos von den Kindern erhalten hat, die die Botschaften der Mutter Gottes mitgeteilt haben. Inzwischen aber spielt dieses Phänomen eine untergeordnete Rolle. Was machen die tausenden Pilger, die heute nach Medjugorje kommen? Sie beten! Jeden Tag beten sie den gesamten Psalter, halten eucharistische Anbetung. Es gibt keinerlei touristische Attraktionen, aber die Pilger verbringen Stunden im Gebet, erklimmen unter Mühen und den Kreuzweg betend den Kreuzberg, und den Rosenkranz betend den Erscheinungsberg. Die Menschen haben eine unglaubliche Sehnsucht, wiederzukehren – wie bei Lourdes. Ich kann mir das nur so erklären, dass die Nähe der Mutter Gottes den Menschen guttut. Da ist etwas Tröstendes, Helfendes, Stärkendes. Ich gestehe: Ich möchte unbedingt wieder nach Medjugorje! Ich kenne viele Menschen, denen es so geht. Es ist die Mutter Gottes doch die beste Führerin zu ihrem Sohn. DT: Ist Medjugorje unabhängig von der Anerkennung der Erscheinungen jedenfalls ein Gnadenort? Schönborn: Um zu bezweifeln, dass in Medjugorje Gnadenströme fließen, muss man die Augen verschließen. Für mich ist das eine Evidenz, an der die Kirche sicher nicht vorbeigehen kann. Es ist zu offensichtlich, dass sich hier Gnadenhaftes ereignet. Was den charismatischen Aspekt betrifft, die Einsprechungen und Worte, gebe ich zu bedenken, dass die heilige Schwester Faustyna über Jahre fast täglich Erscheinungen Jesu gehabt hat. Das wurde von Rom gründlich untersucht, zunächst sehr kritisch, aber die späteren Prüfungen haben die Hieb- und Stichfestigkeit der Erscheinungen gezeigt. Bei Einsprechungen und Visionen war die Kirche immer sehr zurückhaltend, und das ist auch gut so. Wichtig ist nur, dass die Früchte nicht behindert werden. Was mich besonders beeindruckt, ist die große Zahl von sozialen Werken, die aus dem Impuls von Medjugorje entstanden sind: Etwa die Gemeinschaft Cenacolo, die einen unglaublichen Erfolg bei Drogensüchtigen hat, die durch ein glaubensstarkes christliches Leben Heilung finden. Medjugorje ist zu einem Sprungbrett für Cenacolo geworden, denn über diesen Ort hat sich die Hoffnungsbotschaft in die ganze Welt verbreitet. Ein zweites Beispiel ist das Mütterdorf, das Pater Slavko zunächst für die vergewaltigten Frauen und Opfer der grausamen Kriege gegründet hat. DT: Sie nannten die guten Früchte – Bekehrungen, Berufungen, Beichten – und die Inhalte, die dem Evangelium gemäß sind und der Doktrin nicht widersprechen. Was kann die Kirche noch prüfen? Schönborn: Sicher ist ein wichtiges Element auch die persönliche Glaubwürdigkeit der Zeugen. Es kann durchaus auch ein Zeichen für unsere Zeit sein, dass die Seherkinder alle verheiratet sind und Familien haben. Ich meine, man sollte Medjugorje im Licht des Zweiten Vatikanum untersuchen: Der berühmte „sensus fidelium“, der nicht so sehr das Außergewöhnliche sucht, sondern die Stärkung im täglichen Glaubensleben. In der Botschaft von Medjugorje geht es immer um das ganz normale christliche Alltagsleben. Was lernt man von der Mutter Gottes? Den Glauben im Alltag! Für mich ist Medjugorje eine Schule des normalen christlichen Lebens. DT: Sie unterscheiden zwischen dem Anfangsimpuls und den weiteren Phänomenen. Warum? Schönborn: Der Anfangsimpuls hat das Phänomen in Bewegung gebracht. Dass die Botschaften weitergehen, spielt sicher für die Pilger, die mit Medjugorje verbunden bleiben, eine wichtige Rolle. Ohne den Anfangsimpuls gäbe es Medjugorje nicht. Ich möchte nicht über die Anerkennung spekulieren. Für mich als Bischof ist wichtig, dass in den Botschaften nichts ist, was dem Glauben widerspricht. Dass Maria sich in dieser Zeit als „Königin des Friedens“ manifestiert, das ist ihre Handschrift. Ebenso die Betonung der Bekehrung, weil es Frieden untereinander nur gibt, wenn es Frieden mit Gott gibt. DT: Viele Menschen haben in und durch Medjugorje ihr Leben geändert. Gibt es etwas, was Sie nach diesem Besuch anders machen wollen? Schönborn: Wenn es so wäre, würde ich es nicht sagen. Aber eines ist mir durch die Jahre der Verbundenheit mit Lourdes bewusst geworden: dass wir uns viel konkreter von der Mutter Gottes führen lassen sollen. Wie erreicht Maria die Herzen der Menschen? Wir leben in einem Land, in dem die Zahl der aus der Kirche Ausgetretenen die zweitgrößte „Religionsgemeinschaft“ bildet. Viele dieser Menschen haben aber eine Sehnsucht nach Gott. Wir sehen, was mit Menschen passiert, die nach Lourdes oder Medjugorje gehen: da werden Wunden geheilt und Herzen brechen auf. Wie macht Maria das in unserer Zeit? Für mich ist es immer deutlicher geworden, uns von der Pastoral Mariens inspirieren zu lassen. Die Botschaften beinhalten wenig moralische Appelle. Aber wenn die Herzen sich von Maria berühren lassen und sich Gott zuwenden, dann ordnen sich die Dinge, dann kommt das Ja zum Leben aus einer inneren Evidenz heraus. Ein zu Gott bekehrtes Herz findet den richtigen Weg auch in den moralischen Fragen. DT: War Ihre Reise mit dem Heiligen Stuhl abgestimmt? Werden Sie dem Heiligen Stuhl über Ihre Eindrücke berichten? Schönborn: Ich bin aus ganz persönlichen Gründen auf diese Wallfahrt gegangen. Ich verschweige meinen Mitbrüdern gegenüber nicht meine Einstellung zu Medjugorje, die sich vertieft hat. Mit vielen Bischöfen habe ich darüber gesprochen und werde das auch weiter tun. Das ist auch ein Teil der kirchlichen Meinungs- und Urteilsbildung. Für viele der Pilger, die jetzt über Silvester nach Medjugorje kamen, war es schon ein Trost, dass auch ein Kardinal da war. Foto: (c) Oase des Friedens Wien Die Tagespost - Lesen Sie, was Kirche und Welt bewegt. Fordern Sie jetzt Ihre kostenlose Leseprobe für 2 Wochen (6 Ausgaben) an - völlig unverbindlich für Sie! kathTube: Zahlreiche Videos vom Treffen in Medjugorje - z. B. Erscheinung der Seherin Mirjana - Demnächst zu bestellen im kathshop.at